beelzbubba escreveu:

If they started out with the Impulse! albums, they would be able to see (I think) the connections to Bud & Richie Powell, who were his fellow Philadelphians, his mentors and neighbors.

Bud Powell didn't emphasize the left hand. At some point, Tyner recognized the power in his hands and incorporated his left more and more into the mix.

I know I am too close to Tyner's work over the last 40 years as a listener, and so it is hard for me to abstract myself enough to be able to hear him hammering {i]random chords. As I hear it, his chords and fills and comps all fit in and make perfect sense.

I'll admit that at times, Cecil Taylor seems at times to be playing randomly, but the longer I listen to him, the more it pays off in understanding his compositions and harmonic conception. I don't know nearly enough about music to be able to explain what it is that I hear, but again, it works.

What you said to the babcias, you know it needed to be said. In a perfect world you would not have felt bothered to, but then they wouldn't have made their pronouncement as if they understood music and Tyner did not.

Like Coltrane, Tyner studied and practiced a lot of classical exercises and forms. I am continually at a loss as to why some people must downgrade jazz for its differences with classical form, and assume that improvisers simply can't play "real music."

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Yeah it's sad. Jazz considered as unreal music is pissing me off. It's the same story with modern art. "I could do that painting." "I could play that." "I could write such poem." I hear it everywhere. Everyone is suddenly such an expert on art. I always say: go ahead and do that, Mr. Smart Ass, just do it: write some moder poetry, paint some abstraction and play some free jazz." Nope, I actually don't say it every time. I say it occasionally when I'm really angry.

As far as those lady teachers are involved, well few years back piano teachers in music schools and in the music Academies in Poland were usually very conservative old folks, who considered jazz as worse than classical. While learning they concentrated on technique, sound only. I know that this is changing. My brother is 18 years old and he's been studying piano for 11 years (and trumpet for 6) now and I see how how his teachers are getting younger and more open minded.

To understand the background of the "oldschool" piano teachers You might check out this documentary: Glenn Gould: The Russian Journey http://youtube.com/watch?v=ec7Kbm4wymI It shows how slow things were developing in approach to the instrument in Russia in 50s/60s (also this is great story too). Believe me those who were young pianists then - few years back were piano teachers.

Hopefully this is changing, and polish jazz is getting better and better and fresh young musicians are taking over.

Sorry for my disgraceful English. I have a hangover and perspective of enormously hard day ahead.

beelzbubba escreveu:

Your English is fine & so is Polish jazz. As long as Stanko & Komeda albums are available, Polish jazz is proudly represented.

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trombipulation escreveu:

I can feel for those poor old Polish women. The first free jazz I listened to (Brotzmann, Evan Parker, AEC, Coltrane...) had little to no use of trombone in it, so I did not have a problem adopting these new techniques as legitimate or talent-based, since I could not play the instruments being used or therefore appreciate their skill in the same manner that those old ladies could with Tyner.

I remember being fascinated by Derek Bailey upon first hearing him, but my good friend/guitarist MYPODuser, who too digs free jazz, cannot wrap his head around Bailey. When he first alerted me to this, I freaked the fuck. This made absolutely no sense to me. How could he not appreciate a man I view as one of the most inventive guitarists ever? keep in mind Mypod and I have been top musical neighbors for at least a year now, so we have very little differences in musical tastes. He's actually your third top neighbor, Jaymo, by the way.

Then for Christmas (two years back?) I finally got a recording of Gentle Harm of Bourgeoisie (solo trombone album) by Paul Rutherford, a man who is more or less Derek Bailey for the 'bone. I expected it to blow my mind, to make me wanna quit the trombone, 'cause there's no fuckin' way I could ever do 1/8 of what Rutherford does. A good analogy would be an electric bassist listening to A Show of Hands by Wooten, which my bassist/music major friend refuses to listen to anymore, because it depresses him too much.

So I listened to what I thought would be the holy grail of free improv. trombone, and I thought I had been set up. He sounded like some idiot who decided to pick up this brass slidey thing, and record himself dicking around with it. Damn, I was pissed and confused. I knew not everyone could be wrong, so I listened again and again, until I realized what all the hubbub was about. The man, like Tyner, was classically trained, but chose to play his instrument in nearly the exact opposite of the fashion he, and I, was taught to play the trombone. And the amount of these completely original ideas that he puts forth, on the spot live too, is beyond anyone else at his time. I mean, his tone is not "classically" good, his tonguing is purposefully awkward and inconsistent, and he cracks notes more than a player on his third day with a new instrument. All on purpose!

Take whatever you do professionally, and now imagine someone is being hailed as the best person ever at that same thing, except he does everything that you are taught not to do. That is how those babcias viewed McCoy, except even more so because they are classically trained, causing an even more rigid view of the piano and music in general. I hope that helps, Funio. I really feel for those poor old ladies.

Sorry for my English, as I am too lazy to proofread.

Oh, and I have nothing new to add the Tyner info. Sahara is great, though.

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trombipulation escreveu:

I totally put spaces in that now hideous block of text. Last.fm needs to fix that bug.

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beelzbubba escreveu:

(yeah, formatting doesn't work in these journals)

I can see the parallels in your analogies with Cecil Taylor on the piano, Connor, but harder time seeing it with Tyner b/c he doesn't play outside as a rule. What you describe is like Don Cherry or, more so, Lester Bowie on trumpet. The tonguings, the vocalization, the hesitations and spacing drive traditionalists crazy. One of my first and favorite AECo albums was A Message to our Folks, where the quartet (Phil Wilson had left the group to go get paid to play in the Butterfield Blues Band and Don Moye had not yet joined) explores a very nonstandard gospel, a bebop standard, a "psychedelic" romp, and wraps it up with a regulation issue Art Ensemble long jam. This is the sort of stuff that you hear people mock--I can remember playing it for somebody a few years ago and his response was that it sounded like his kid's fourth grade band warming up. It is also the stuff that Marsalis points to at times to say that the avant-garde players were not able to play jazz (the way he defined it). But it ignores the reality--and I realize I'm preaching to the converted, so I'll not belabor the point. But to get back to Tyner and the grand old piano instructors, they can't hear Tyner not because he plays free or outside, but that their conception is so tightly regulated that it all sounds like nonsense when Tyner peals off lengthy runs of 64th notes. In college, my friend's roommate was a classical violinist. He could appreciate Leroy Jenkins & Billy Bang, but he simply could not improvise to save his soul. He argued--or tried to-about Jenkins not being able to play some of the sonatas that he, the roommate, had mastered. So we took him to see the Creative Construction Company--Braxton, Leo Smith, George Lewis, Leroy Jenkins, McCall, Sirone and a number of guests. We hung around afterwards talking, and we knew that Jack was going to at some point brag about playing classical violin and that he'd put his foot in his mouth. So, as expected he mentions the name of a violin piece that he thinks he's especially good at and Leroy let him play it on his violin. Then Leroy plays it straight note for note, then improvises off of the melody, taking it into new areas and then back to the theme. But it wasn't woodshedding or bragging--Leroy then showed him how to break it down mathematically and begin rebuilding the piece and gave Jack about 45 minutes of advanced jazz improv. Jack never again scoffed at records we'd play around him. He never felt comfortable with improv, but at least he realized that quite a bit of talent, knowledge, and practice was the foundation.

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trombipulation escreveu:

Yeah, I was not implying that Tyner is really all that free, but from what Funio described, it appeared that to those women, Tyner might as well have been as free as Cecil Taylor, or to match up with my Europeans cats, Fred Van Howe. Those cluster chords would not appear to us at all as "random" or "impossible to get", and I agree that they should not have really disturbed those women either, unless they have never heard Tyner before, but even then they must be somewhat familiar with jazz music, or why did they go to hear McCoy? Their reaction to him is not justifiable. I was just trying to explain their initial turn-off. Maybe, hopefully, by now they have listened to more jazz piano and can appreciate it as a separate form of music than classical, because they were not able to understand Tyner's thought process through strict classical rules and guidelines, and hence were unimpressed with him. It sounds like you friend's roommate, Jake, could at least appreciate jazz as its own art form, but could see a connection between the two, or structured thought process existing in improvisation. If the old women can't even view jazz itself as a legitimate genre, then they had no chance at appreciating Tyner. I coincidentally gave A Message to Our Folks a spin yesterday. Great album, indeed. Urban Bushmen is probably my favorite (for now, at least), but I love everything I have heard so far by them.

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I think those grandmas were hearing some serious jazz player for the first time and their were pretty closed minded. At best they could treat Tyner as some sort of amateur folk musician, a native playing "in his own way" the instrument, which those ladies teach. I don't feel sorry for them. They won't change. Also, the story told by Jaymo, bout classic musician beein' not able to improvise, well it's true. I played in band with some classical musicians and out of 4 one of them was able to play a decent jazz solo. Rest of them was good at reading notes and discussing some harmonic problems, or stuff like that, but when it comes to playing the blues the were useless.

blues_hound escreveu:

Excellent guide to Tyner's work. I just want to make a mention of The Greeting as one of his best live recordings. Part of my bias is because I was present at the taping but it is one of his best live ensemble albums.

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beelzbubba escreveu:

Marvin the Truth Speaker! Yes, I really should have included The Greeting in the list of Tyner essentials. I had it half-a-hair's-breadth after the others. Since there are a couple of studio large ensembles in the list, drop Fly With The Wind (since I got the title wrong in my list anyway), and replace with The Greeting.

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negusmagus escreveu:

there are so many great McCoy records...
my favorites are;
Trident (which was the first one I heard) and
Voices- which IS actually a great record
incredible drumming by Eric Gravatt (who's back with him btw)
and probably the best recorded played by Alex Foster (sax)

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actsyalulz escreveu:

I met him when I was 3 years old. Got a handshake and everything. He was good friends with my father.

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