Symphonic Metal

ringwraith10 escreveu:

I seem to be a little late in this conversation, but I do want to say that if you DO write the parts for an orchestra (including writing the arrangements for all of the different instruments), that is certainly talent. If a band were to include an orchestra playing an arrangement that THEY wrote, then I can't see any reason to criticize them. I can't definitely name any bands that have done this, though, as I haven't researched the topic. For all I know, there might not be any. I'm just saying that if a band WERE to do this, it would be an admirable feat.

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florianblaschke escreveu:

What annoys people is mainly the impression that the orchestra is used as a way to cover up the deficits and weaknesses that the music otherwise has, and make easy-listening rock music that uneducated listeners associate with the "genius" image of symphonic composers. As for metal from a musical point of view, try this and this.

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florianblaschke escreveu:

Correction: "There's more to orchestra metal than the orchestra parts." Oh, and hiring someone to write or arrange the orchestra parts is even less worthy of admiration. It certainly doesn't turn you into a great composer.

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nDroae escreveu:

Ah, I hadn't considered the origin of the term or possible meanings. To me "symphonic" has only meant definition 1a: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/symphony "an elaborate instrumental composition in three or more movements, similar in form to a sonata but written for an orchestra and usually of far grander proportions and more varied elements." I like definition 4 though. I should add that I still don't think I really know what metal is either. :-P

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florianblaschke escreveu:

Outsourcing musicianship from the band to guest musicians goes right against the spirit of metal, which includes a certain level of musicianship and "extremeness" in the band that makes it more challenging to fully appreciate than mainstream pop. It's easy to find skilled guest musicians and write challenging parts for them. There's nothing admirable in that, it's just showing off other people's skills and your own financial power. That said, it's easy to impress with an orchestra because everything sounds better when it is played by a skilled orchestra, especially Disney-esque soundtrack-ish music that is an imitation of an imitation of an imitation of real classical music.

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florianblaschke escreveu:

If orchestras were relevant to symphonic metal it would be called orchestra metal. But it isn't. Actually "symphonic" is a far more precise description if you look at the original meaning of the word: "sounding together". You don't need a real orchestra at all to achieve a "symphonic" sound. cognitive21st: There is more to orchestra metal than the orchestra parts, and the metal part. Orchestra metal with mediocre metal parts and mediocre songwriting as well as mediocre vocals is mediocre, as impressive as the orchestra parts may be. At the base, symphonic or orchestra metal is still METAL (at least that's what the term says - it doesn't say "metallised orchestra pop rock" or something like that), so I will judge it mainly by the metal parts - the orchestra is just a nice aside but not essential to the music. After all, when you go see the band, who is playing is the band, not the orchestra, especially when it comes from backup tapes.

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nDroae escreveu:

Okay... Therion and After Forever aren't more popular than Nightwish or WT, nor is that what florianblaschke meant. I don't think they're better, either, but it doesn't matter. According to the true definition of symphonic metal, orchestra is irrelevant; symphonic structure in the music would be all that matters. However I think it's best to ignore that and equate "symphonic" with "orchestral" because otherwise you'll just be a lone voice yelling at the mob to run the other way, pointless. And Evanescence is not gothic rock; that was first-generation goth music back in the late 70's and 80's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock Evanescence are gothic and rock but not gothic rock. I realize that calling out misuse of the "gothic rock" tag is also yelling at the mob, but in that case my respect for first-generation goths compels me to. :) That's not the case with symphonic metal.

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cognitive21st escreveu:

@florianblaschke (your 3rd last comment) : who said those bands are better....being more popular does NOT mean you can classify them as better.......if you dont like it then its not better for you!! and if you do then it is!!!

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cognitive21st escreveu:

@florianblaschke (your 3rd last comment): what orchestral obsession of NW are you talking about?? it is orchestra that makes this genre named as symphonic metal; are you saying that orchestral emphasis is destructive for this genre??? well then i m bound to disagree; i think its orchestra along with metal ofcourse, that makes this genre so unique; beauty with strength!! on the other hand i think that evanesence and WT do NOT qualify as symphonic metal bands because most of evanesence's music fit in gothic rock and WT's in symphonic rock !!?? and lastly i think all of this genre classification of bands is just a little stupid; cuz bands never want to be restricted to be certain type of music; they mostly like to experiment; as you can see therion underwent a major genre shift....so you can classify tracks, maybe albums in most cases but bands can be very rarely classified as belonging to a certain genre!!! peace

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Amireas escreveu:

therion , rhapsody , haggard , epica , tarja , ...

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Emtay13 escreveu:

Top artists suck, excluding Therion and After Forever.

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Carnassial1 escreveu:

Cheers everyone! You can vote for "Symphonic metal" in "Favorite Heavy metal Sub-genre Poll" on my profile page Carnassial1 It's over 2000 votes now. I'll be glad if you take a shot.

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dirqe_inferno escreveu:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Symphonic-Folk-Metal-Turkey/174423821376?ref=mf

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dirqe_inferno escreveu:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Symphonic-Folk-Metal-Turkey/174423821376?ref=mf

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dirqe_inferno escreveu:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Symphonic-Folk-Metal-Turkey/174423821376?ref=mf

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ringwraith10 escreveu:

I also want to point out that I am on a never-ending quest to denounce genres altogether. Genres barely actually mean anything, and labeling music only causes arguments like this (or the worse, the unintelligent ones that are so common in the metal community) to occur. Music is music, and some is good, and some is crappy, and a little of both fall into every "genre" there is. *Shrug*

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nDroae escreveu:

I should explain further... I see an ever-widening divide between the standards of discerning listeners (generally the kind of people who write extensively on Last.fm) and everyone else - the public, the reviewers and media who still call Nightwish and WT "gothic metal," and the record labels who'll say whatever sells. For me, it's the lesser of two evils to alienate the discerning listeners than it is to alienate everyone else. I was talking to someone once who said that some post-rock band say they hate the term "post-rock," and think of their music as "symphonic." That made sense to me, it's too bad the field's full of squatters - but everyone thinks the squatters belong there and there's really nothing I can do about it, so I just go along with it.

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ringwraith10 escreveu:

florianblaschke: I agree with you about the quality of the music itself. I do feel that the music should be more complex in terms of both the "metal" guitar and drum parts, as well as in the "classical" orchestral music. Many of the bands that are classified as symphonic metal do not fit these standards. I do wish to point out, however, that the genre "metal" has been used to describe so many different things that it's almost not even a genre anymore (kind of like "rock"). If you take a look at a lot of "metal" bands, they don't follow any strict musical standard, either.

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