symphonic metalCaixa de mensagens
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Colony666 escreveu:
fuck me this shoutbox is a godamn novel
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nDroae escreveu:
Oh, okay. :D Yeah, it'd be nice if symphonic metal actually was symphonic. XD
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florianblaschke escreveu:
nDroae, I don't think musical development is a widely used technique in symphonic metal - it's really sophisticated for rock music in general. "Close to the Edge" by Yes is said to have the form of a symphony, but not one of the usual forms. Recurring, modulated motifs/ideas is not what I hear in "Son of the Sun" - the basic structure is quite usual for a rock/metal song. I would examine epic longtracks for "symphony structures". One example that comes to mind is "White Pearl, Black Oceans..." by Sonata Arctica. You've got one melody repeated throughout the entire piece, but ever-changing and morphing - admittedly, it is always easily recognised. But I think musical development is an ingenious technique to use your musical ideas and melodies in an economical way - "recycle" them without overly obvious repetition -, and deserves to be used FAR more in metal, especially symphonic metal, of course. Free-form fantasias are harder!
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Scython escreveu:
Kamelot are the best symphonic metal band imo!
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nightfrgi escreveu:
Symphonic metal is the best metal style for me. Nightwish and Within Temptation are the best really. Therion begin play symphonic metal in 1996 by album Theli. It was a first symphonic metal album....Epica is the best symphonic metal band at 21 th century and Apocalyptica isn´t symphonic metal, because they don´t use full orchestra.
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nDroae escreveu:
Kingdom of Heaven has been growing on me, much to my discomfort. XD Interesting observation about removing repetition increasing the complexity. Yeah, that's what I meant about "symphonic in the true sense," as I understand it that means a symphonic song structure regardless of the instruments used to play it, which (to my untrained ear) "Son of the Son" seems to have, as its clear musical "theme" is played in variations / developed (or whatever the term is) over the course of the song. :)
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YESILO89 escreveu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjAyQDhbZy8&NR=1
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florianblaschke escreveu:
... the lines of Estatic Fear (see "Somnium Obmutum"), or (early) Empyrium; some avantgarde metal; some folk metal; and last but not least the aforementioned post-rock/metal. Godspeed You! Black Emperor partly act like an orchestra made out of electric guitars played in unconventional ways, more like violins - certainly a unique twist on the idea to combine rock music and orchestral sounds somehow.
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florianblaschke escreveu:
If the term "symphonic metal" is restricted to bands using a real full symphonic orchestra, the genre would be extremely small. For example, Visions of Atlantis haven't used a real orchestra, either, on Trinity, and Edenbridge didn't do so before MyEarthDream. Even Epica don't use a full orchestra on their albums. Nevermind that no band except Therion tours with a live orchestra. The restriction makes as little sense as the requirement of a lead vocalist singing in a classical style - which actually makes a little bit more sense, now that I think of it. But while most people may spontaneously associate the term "symphonic metal" with orchestral and choral bombast, or at least a synthesiser-based imitation of it, it is certainly true that other genres could lay claim to the term just as well: melodic prog metal à la Dream Theater (I've read the description "symphonic progressive metal" in fact), being based as it is on the classic symphonic (prog) rock of the seventies; doom metal along
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florianblaschke escreveu:
One criticism about "Kingdom of Heaven" and the album as a whole that I agree with to some extent - in principle - is that it is too repetitive. But if the repetition was removed, the songs would be shorter, but even more complex and difficult to get into. ;-)
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florianblaschke escreveu:
"Kingdom of Heaven" is great, but not easy to get into because it is, as you say, kind of chaotic. But that's not a bug, it's a feature. It has a unusual song structure and fits the progressive metal mold indeed. The instrumental part in the middle always reminds me of Opeth, and in a good way because truth be told, I've always found it hard to get into Opeth myself: their music is very gloomy and chaotic and jazzy; hard to swallow for me. But I've come to like their sound; their music is definitely autumn music, full of shades of brown, gray and black, like a muddy November. Very atmospheric, but a little too bleak and depressive for my taste.
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nDroae escreveu:
"Son of the Sun" was impressive and clearly symphonic in the true sense. Y'know, speaking of songs being carefully crafted, I read that Epica's "Kingdom of Heaven" took three years to compose, but to me it's rather boring. I can't tell if that's entirely because I don't like progressive metal much, or also in part because the song turned out messy. :-P I actually want to invest less time expanding my musical horizons from now on than I have since 2006; I bought a load of music in that time that I don't really enjoy, although sometimes I like it better when I listen to it again a year or more after the first time. This, for example. XD
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ringwraith10 escreveu:
Though I agree with you, florianblaschke -- music shouldn't be something that a band can produce in an hour. A song needs to have more thought and effort put into it than many of the popular songs that people are listening to right now. To me, not only does the music need to be of a high quality or unique in some way, but the lyrics need to mean something. I've heard some REALLY crappy songs recently that make me want to vomit -- they have very little effort put into the music, and the lyrics look like the songwriters opened a dictionary, closed their eyes, and put their finger on a word and used that method for creating lyrics. Not cool.
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ringwraith10 escreveu:
The problem here is that the "metal" genre has become so confusing and convoluted recently. Not only do we now have genres like "nu-metal", which can't decide if they're metal or hard rock, but certain old metal bands are now being slammed for not being metal enough *cough*Metallica*cough*. I find it hard to determine whether something is actually *metal* or not, and it seems that this genre is now up for individual interpretation.
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florianblaschke escreveu:
You see, the genre is not always easy to appreciate but demands some dedication and time of you. "Growers" are a good thing, in my experience. There are songs and albums that I immediately loved and that I never tired of but those are very rare. Good music is music that you can listen to again and again, even after many years and changing tastes or further experiences (whether in music or in life) and you keep discovering new aspects. I know I have taken years to get into some genres, bands and albums that are among my favourites now. If that's not your thing and you want a quick fix, no problem, but that's not what THIS genre is about. It's not mere background music. For an example (somewhat random) of a symphonic metal song that's also a carefully crafted metal song see "Son of the Sun" by Therion and pay attention to the guitar, especially the beginning riff and the solo at 4:00.
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florianblaschke escreveu:
ringwraith10: IF a band arranges all their orchestra parts THEMSELVES in addition to writing the outlines, I sure DO respect that accomplishment. But you cannot take that for granted and impressing your audience through the virtuosity of guest musicians (and the accomplishments of hired guns) instead of your own is lame. nDroae: Sorry for you, but you see, the question "metal or not?" is not just a subjective assessment and that you need a certain background and experience for a proper estimation. I highly respect all the true metal, whether traditional, power, speed, thrash, death, black, doom, gothic, prog, avantgarde, folk or whatever, even if I don't enjoy all those genres equally, and all bands that display musicianship, but I oppose dumbing down the genre. Alternative metal is a case in point, because it is based on hardcore punk rather than metal and lacks the sophistication of real metal. I'm not much into, say, technical death metal but I do respect the sophistication thereof.
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nDroae escreveu:
I have read that part of the Wikipedia article before, but I can't translate it into an ability to tell whether something I'm listening to is metal (or good metal) or not, since I've never been a serious student of music. Avant-garde vs. alternative metal is interesting, I was under the impression that "alternative metal" was just a fad tag for metal-influenced rock music like Flyleaf. :D
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ringwraith10 escreveu:
I seem to be a little late in this conversation, but I do want to say that if you DO write the parts for an orchestra (including writing the arrangements for all of the different instruments), that is certainly talent. If a band were to include an orchestra playing an arrangement that THEY wrote, then I can't see any reason to criticize them. I can't definitely name any bands that have done this, though, as I haven't researched the topic. For all I know, there might not be any. I'm just saying that if a band WERE to do this, it would be an admirable feat.
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florianblaschke escreveu:
What annoys people is mainly the impression that the orchestra is used as a way to cover up the deficits and weaknesses that the music otherwise has, and make easy-listening rock music that uneducated listeners associate with the "genius" image of symphonic composers. As for metal from a musical point of view, try this and this.
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florianblaschke escreveu:
Correction: "There's more to orchestra metal than the orchestra parts." Oh, and hiring someone to write or arrange the orchestra parts is even less worthy of admiration. It certainly doesn't turn you into a great composer.
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nDroae escreveu:
Ah, I hadn't considered the origin of the term or possible meanings. To me "symphonic" has only meant definition 1a: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/symphony "an elaborate instrumental composition in three or more movements, similar in form to a sonata but written for an orchestra and usually of far grander proportions and more varied elements." I like definition 4 though. I should add that I still don't think I really know what metal is either. :-P
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florianblaschke escreveu:
Outsourcing musicianship from the band to guest musicians goes right against the spirit of metal, which includes a certain level of musicianship and "extremeness" in the band that makes it more challenging to fully appreciate than mainstream pop. It's easy to find skilled guest musicians and write challenging parts for them. There's nothing admirable in that, it's just showing off other people's skills and your own financial power. That said, it's easy to impress with an orchestra because everything sounds better when it is played by a skilled orchestra, especially Disney-esque soundtrack-ish music that is an imitation of an imitation of an imitation of real classical music.
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florianblaschke escreveu:
If orchestras were relevant to symphonic metal it would be called orchestra metal. But it isn't. Actually "symphonic" is a far more precise description if you look at the original meaning of the word: "sounding together". You don't need a real orchestra at all to achieve a "symphonic" sound. cognitive21st: There is more to orchestra metal than the orchestra parts, and the metal part. Orchestra metal with mediocre metal parts and mediocre songwriting as well as mediocre vocals is mediocre, as impressive as the orchestra parts may be. At the base, symphonic or orchestra metal is still METAL (at least that's what the term says - it doesn't say "metallised orchestra pop rock" or something like that), so I will judge it mainly by the metal parts - the orchestra is just a nice aside but not essential to the music. After all, when you go see the band, who is playing is the band, not the orchestra, especially when it comes from backup tapes.
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nDroae escreveu:
Okay... Therion and After Forever aren't more popular than Nightwish or WT, nor is that what florianblaschke meant. I don't think they're better, either, but it doesn't matter. According to the true definition of symphonic metal, orchestra is irrelevant; symphonic structure in the music would be all that matters. However I think it's best to ignore that and equate "symphonic" with "orchestral" because otherwise you'll just be a lone voice yelling at the mob to run the other way, pointless. And Evanescence is not gothic rock; that was first-generation goth music back in the late 70's and 80's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock Evanescence are gothic and rock but not gothic rock. I realize that calling out misuse of the "gothic rock" tag is also yelling at the mob, but in that case my respect for first-generation goths compels me to. :) That's not the case with symphonic metal.
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cognitive21st escreveu:
@florianblaschke (your 3rd last comment) : who said those bands are better....being more popular does NOT mean you can classify them as better.......if you dont like it then its not better for you!! and if you do then it is!!!
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cognitive21st escreveu:
@florianblaschke (your 3rd last comment): what orchestral obsession of NW are you talking about?? it is orchestra that makes this genre named as symphonic metal; are you saying that orchestral emphasis is destructive for this genre??? well then i m bound to disagree; i think its orchestra along with metal ofcourse, that makes this genre so unique; beauty with strength!! on the other hand i think that evanesence and WT do NOT qualify as symphonic metal bands because most of evanesence's music fit in gothic rock and WT's in symphonic rock !!?? and lastly i think all of this genre classification of bands is just a little stupid; cuz bands never want to be restricted to be certain type of music; they mostly like to experiment; as you can see therion underwent a major genre shift....so you can classify tracks, maybe albums in most cases but bands can be very rarely classified as belonging to a certain genre!!! peace
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Amireas escreveu:
therion , rhapsody , haggard , epica , tarja , ...
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Emtay13 escreveu:
Top artists suck, excluding Therion and After Forever.
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Carnassial1 escreveu:
Cheers everyone! You can vote for "Symphonic metal" in "Favorite Heavy metal Sub-genre Poll" on my profile page Carnassial1 It's over 2000 votes now. I'll be glad if you take a shot.
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dirqe_inferno escreveu:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Symphonic-Folk-Metal-Turkey/174423821376?ref=mf
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dirqe_inferno escreveu:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Symphonic-Folk-Metal-Turkey/174423821376?ref=mf
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dirqe_inferno escreveu:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Symphonic-Folk-Metal-Turkey/174423821376?ref=mf
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ringwraith10 escreveu:
I also want to point out that I am on a never-ending quest to denounce genres altogether. Genres barely actually mean anything, and labeling music only causes arguments like this (or the worse, the unintelligent ones that are so common in the metal community) to occur. Music is music, and some is good, and some is crappy, and a little of both fall into every "genre" there is. *Shrug*
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nDroae escreveu:
I should explain further... I see an ever-widening divide between the standards of discerning listeners (generally the kind of people who write extensively on Last.fm) and everyone else - the public, the reviewers and media who still call Nightwish and WT "gothic metal," and the record labels who'll say whatever sells. For me, it's the lesser of two evils to alienate the discerning listeners than it is to alienate everyone else. I was talking to someone once who said that some post-rock band say they hate the term "post-rock," and think of their music as "symphonic." That made sense to me, it's too bad the field's full of squatters - but everyone thinks the squatters belong there and there's really nothing I can do about it, so I just go along with it.
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ringwraith10 escreveu:
florianblaschke: I agree with you about the quality of the music itself. I do feel that the music should be more complex in terms of both the "metal" guitar and drum parts, as well as in the "classical" orchestral music. Many of the bands that are classified as symphonic metal do not fit these standards. I do wish to point out, however, that the genre "metal" has been used to describe so many different things that it's almost not even a genre anymore (kind of like "rock"). If you take a look at a lot of "metal" bands, they don't follow any strict musical standard, either.
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nDroae escreveu:
Eh... IMO "should" and "discerning" went out the window as soon as the term "symphonic metal" was coined instead of "orchestral metal." For several months after I saw the tag "symphonic metal," I assumed it meant some kind of progressive metal with the musical form of a symphony, and hence ignored it. Nowadays, I have no qualms at all about going with the flow and abusing this term as I see fit.
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florianblaschke escreveu:
Also, you're setting yourself up for trouble when you effectively claim to combine classical music (an extremely developped form of music) and metal (a technically very developped form of music as well) or symphonic/progressive rock (same here) but the result is more akin to pop rock with film score like orchestrations (or worse, cheap synthesizer effects) and pop vocals, as well as lyrics that sound more clichéd than refined. Few bands actually manage to live up to the expectations raised. "Symphonic metal" is a VERY pretentious label and should be used in a much more cautious way.
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florianblaschke escreveu:
Seems we've just struck at the heart of the problem, nDroae. You do realise that Delain, Within Temptation etc. are not marketed as symphonic rock or pop, but METAL? The reason why so-called symphonic metal has a bad reputation among general metal fans is that many of the bands make music that has little to do with either (good) metal or classical music. Hey, whatever rocks your boat, and if you enjoy the music, more power to you, but please, please, DON'T call it symphonic or even gothic metal. NOTE: In metal, instruments are of equal importance as vocals (or lyrics, for that matter), and generally expected to be on a technically fairly high level. Metal is not supposed to be easy to listen to, and high-quality metal is moreover expected to have some degree of originality, songwriting-wise. Pop metal is not taken seriously as an alternative by discerning metal fans (many of whom dabble in making music themselves). Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you the way things are.
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nDroae escreveu:
I don't even care about the "metal" part, it can be symphonic rock, pop, whatever, if it's done well with a singer I like then it's pretty much guaranteed to be awesome. I love Delain's "heavy, lush pop music" as the band themselves call it.
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Plummad escreveu:
And so is Epica, Within temptation, Hanging Doll and such. Symph metal
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yagami0light escreveu:
I second what ringwraith10 wrote and add that Kamelot is another wonderful example of well done Symphonic Metal.
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ringwraith10 escreveu:
I just wish people would stop putting down symphonic metal. I know this is a nearly impossible concept in the metal world, but I don't see why so many people get off by hating on music that other people like. I, personally, like this sub-genre because I listen to both classical music and metal. That may sound like an oxymoron, but there are others like me, I swear. I like the fact that some bands have decided to fuse the two genres. I was first introduced to the concept of a mix between metal and classical music by Savatage and Trans-Siberian Orchestra. I know that nowadays there are a lot of crappy bands in this now-trendy sub-genre, but that doesn't mean that all symphonic metal bands are crap.
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NightVermillion escreveu:
One of the things that is right with the world is Symphonic Metal.
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staro_zlo escreveu:
shit for my ears
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florianblaschke escreveu:
The sad thing about the genre is that some of the copycats are even better than the pioneers now, because save for the mighty Therion, the standard of the music of pretty much every old band in the genre (read: started in the 1990s) has declined a lot (when they haven't disbanded, like AF). It is telling that male-fronted bands have not become infested by the same plague, as they actually care for the music and are not really concerned with conquering the mainstream market. The main bad role models dragging the scene down are Evanescence, WT and regrettably, recent NW ever since their orchestral obsession started.
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korotkova001 escreveu:
+++++++++
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ProgresiveLanD escreveu:
Haggard Nightwish and Therion ftw :D
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ThePlayStation2 escreveu:
not even funny.
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silversadheart escreveu:
Awesome music! But Haggard should be in the top artists. In my opinion they with Therion mighty deserves the throne of the genre.
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myimmortallovee escreveu:
nightwish & within temptation & leaves' eyes . <3 \m/
